SEASON TWO, Episode 5: "I'm not dismissed!" Daughtering as an analytical framework in the Black feminist tradition. A discussion with Leah and Dr. Mildred Boveda.

It's the Season 2 finale! Host Dr. Allison Alford joins mother-daughter duo Leah & Dr. Mildred Boveda to explore the role of daughtering through the lens of youth activism and Critical Race Theory, rooted in Black Feminism. Allison's Google Alerts serendipitously connected her to the Bovedas; ahh the beauty of the research community!

Leah, a student at Brown University, reflects on her previous experiences as a youth activist in critical race debates after moving from FL to AZ, and how this culture shift impacted her adolescence. Leah tells her story, describing how she daughtered non-familial adults by both challenging and appreciating them.

Dr. Mildred Boveda—an award-winning professor at Penn State University, scholar and expert in special education studies—tells her story of making an impact in education, describes her work around Critical Race Theory and unpacks some thoughtful ideas for listeners to better understand current debates. Next, they discuss the Bovedas article, Centering Youth of Color Activism & Knowledge in the Critical Race Theory Debates (Boveda & Boveda, 2023). Shout out to to Dr. Venus Evans-Winters for her research in  daughtering as well as for her mentorship of Leah!

Mothering and daughtering roles can be found in both familial and non-familial relationships; through these connections women make sense of the world. Mildred explains how mothers, or nurturers, make space for daughters and the generations to come, while acknowledging how younger people can aid understanding. There is both an honoring by daughters toward mothers and a push to do better. Leah adds that daughtering can take place almost anywhere, but is particularly salient in youth activism, and in this space, effective communication is key.

As the final season of Hello Mother, Hello Daughter comes to a close, we would like to extend our gratitude to all our listeners!  Want to share your daughtering story? Contact us at 100daughtersproject@gmail.com.

Reflection Questions from hosts, Drs. Allison Alford & Michelle Miller-Day:

• Who are you daughtering?  What separates daughtering from friendship or other relational connections?
• Do you think they recognize your daughtering?
• Have you considered having a conversation with close women in your life to discuss non-familial daughtering or mothering?

To learn more about CRT:
Explore the research of Derrick Bell, Kimberlé Crenshaw, Cheryl Harris, & Patricia J. Williams (to name a few!)

Memorable Quotes:
“Mothering and daughtering are two sides of the same coin. I am not dismissed in this daughtering role.” -Leah

“Maybe my mom didn’t have the opportunities  that I did, but as her daughter, I should honor her and uplift her so that other people can know what she helped me understand and what I helped her understand” -Dr Mildred Boveda

Links:

• In memoriam, honor, and love for Mildred's Mami: a collection of stories
• Boveda, L., & Boveda, M. (2023). Centering Youth of Color Activism and Knowledge in the Critical Race Theory Debates. Teachers College Record, 125(5), 118-129. 
• Mildred's blog on CRT. 
• Leah's project: Melanin Minds.

Find us on Instagram: instagram.com/hellomother_hellodaughter/
and Facebook: facebook.com/hellomotherhellodaughter

Transcript

Allison: 0:16

Hello, mother. Hello, daughter.

Michelle: 0:19

Just like any relationship, the adult mother daughter relationship takes work. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Miller Day. And

Allison: 0:27

I'm your host, Dr. Allison Alford. In this podcast, we'll discuss the experience of mothering and daughtering in adulthood. We'll explore the topics that matter most to women using both a scientific perspective and an everyday relational lens. Be sure to listen till the end of the podcast to hear our pro tips for both mothers and daughters. Our goal for this podcast is to help women have better relationships and better lives. And of course,

Michelle: 0:53

don't forget to like and follow us on social media.

Mildred: 1:00

Hello,

Allison: 1:00

mother. Hello daughter! Today we're

Michelle: 1:03

talking about daughtering, but in a new way for this episode.

Allison: 1:09

Okay, this is a, this is a good story. So I'm signed up for Google Alerts for some of my research topics, as many of us are. If you're not familiar with that, it's when you get an email and Uh, from Google, anytime a keyword is published in Google Scholar results. So, I set up an alert for the word daughtering, so that anytime somebody would use that word, I will get an email about it. And that's because I want to see if somebody is, you know, how they're using that word because it's not very common. Correct. So I got an email and it included this really wonderful article written by the mother daughter team of Dr. Mildred Boveda and her daughter Leah Boveda. And the thing is they were using the word daughtering in a way that was, you know, I'm a little bit embarrassed to say it was new to me. Why are you embarrassed?

Michelle: 2:14

No, tell us a little bit about this article. That's the whole thing

Allison: 2:17

about research is we stand on the

Michelle: 2:18

shoulders of giants. We build on each other's thoughts and ideas and it grows and we expand our knowledge. So tell

Allison: 2:25

us more. Well, you know, I like to know all there is to know. And not think that I don't know that there, that I have to learn a brand new thing, but the, the Boveda's are very kind of generous in the interview as they, they taught me a lot of things. Um, and we talked about their article, this article that came out and it's about, primarily about Leah's experience as a youth activist in the critical race theory debate. So, as she was in high school, participating in youth activism, she experienced quite a few challenges getting her voice heard. Ultimately, she had adults who supported her, some who challenged her, right? And so the Boveda's used the lens of daughtering in the article to describe how Leah daughtered non familial adults in her life throughout the experience of youth activism, both through pushing them and appreciating them. Hmm. Well,

Michelle: 3:31

you said that you learned a lot from this. So tell us a little bit more about what you learned about the term daughtering from

Allison: 3:37

the Boveda's. Mildred was telling me that the daughtering term, which they cite in their article, uh, which was used by Dr. Venus Evans, uh, Winters, comes from the black feminist tradition. And in recent literature, Dr. Evans Winters has articulated daughtering as an analytical framework. But it's not that the concept of daughtering Originates with her. Um, so Mildred tells us more about that in the interview, but in brief, this concept arises from a cultural tradition of black women who function as other mothers, which means they share in mothering responsibilities for children in the black community. And where there's mothering, there's daughtering. So Patricia Hill Collins is among the many feminist scholars who've revealed, identified, and unpacked these ideas. And Mildred also cites Kimberlé Crenshaw, who talks about intersectionality, a framework that can be used to see and wrestle with oppression and multiple overlapping identities. I want to share with

Michelle: 4:46

our listeners a description of critical race theory, or CRT as it is often called, that Dr. Boveda provided in a blog. We're going to link to all

Allison: 4:57

this in the show

Michelle: 4:57

notes, but Dr. Boveda says this. Critical race theory originated from a group of black legal scholars who during the 1970s and 1980s were frustrated because despite the many landmark cases won during the civil rights movement, these outcomes did not produce the types

Allison: 5:18

of changes in society they were

Michelle: 5:21

hoping for. So as a result, they thought deeply about the lack of progress and created several tenets by which to make sense of racism in the United States. Critical race theory

Allison: 5:32

is a lens.

Michelle: 5:34

By which U. S. based legal scholars, and those informed by those scholars, examine the persistence of racism in our society. So this is a legal, a legal

Allison: 5:46

theory, right? Am I correct in that? That's certainly where it originated, yes. And ultimately it is an idea. Right? As, as theories are, they are an idea and a framework and a way of thinking about things. That's what critical race theory is. It's a way of examining and thinking about a system in place. And in this case, that system that we're thinking about is persistent racism that continues to happen despite changes that occur. That should not allow it to keep happening. So in this talk today, to get back around to daughtering, we hear about Mildred and Leah's relationship and then Leah's experience as a youth activist and how she, how she herself used daughtering. in her activism. So again, we'll have many resources in the show notes and we're bringing together a bunch of different ideas here. Some of it more academic than some of our other talks, but really important. Uh, so let's hear from the experts. I'm here with a mother daughter duo. We have Dr. Mildred Boveda and her daughter, Leah Boveda. And Leah, I want to chat with you a little bit first and ask you, can you tell us a little bit about. Your life so far and what it is like to be in relationship with your mom.

Mildred: 7:25

All right.

Leah: 7:26

That's like a broad question.

Mildred: 7:27

I don't know.

Leah: 7:31

Originally we're from Miami, right? And so a big part of my childhood was spent in Miami and like being in a very Caribbean space. And so I. Someone who is very comfortable with like Latina culture. And that was something I really grew up with. And then we moved during,

Mildred: 7:50

right before I

Leah: 7:51

started high school. Right mama? It was right there. And so it was right after 8th

Mildred: 7:56

grade. I had gone through, you know, middle school shenanigans. We moved across

Leah: 8:00

the country, uh, to Arizona. And so I go from a Caribbean Latina space where it's like very much like a lot of Afro Latinidad, a lot of like That was kind of modeled for me and that was very

Mildred: 8:12

much there to a community where it was very

Leah: 8:14

Mexican, which there's a

Mildred: 8:17

huge Afro, Afro Mexican

Leah: 8:19

population too, but that's just not who I was with. So it was like from like accounting. It's called Sonora, like a province called Sonora. A lot of like, just like white Latinos, to be honest. Right. And so with a very different understanding of like what Latin Latinidad looks like, and so a big part of my entrance into activism and like me understanding what my mom does. And what exactly my mom is resisting against, right? A lot of that, a lot of that, that understanding came from like that drastic move and just kind of being situated in a different, different cultural understanding. Yeah, I go to Brown University. Um, right now I'm starting a new project as a curator. So it's the girls.

Allison: 9:03

I think one of the most special things that, um, I learned about you just by reading the work and your article that you've done together, that we're going to talk about here in a minute is that beautiful relationship you have. And so I'll just jump over to you Mildred and say, can you tell us a little bit about your life and also your relationship, what it's like to be in relationship with Leah? A

Mildred: 9:28

little bit about my life. I'm an associate professor at Penn State University. I am an editor of a journal, an education journal. I'm a teacher educator, I'm a faculty member, and I'm situated in special education. So, um, Leah, she talked about us being From Miami and me resisting and that made me laugh, but like I was I was I'm like the resistor. That's funny Leah went to the same school I worked in as a classroom teacher before I became a university faculty like my son and my daughter So she has a brother. His Papo Shout out to bopple. I don't know. But we love bopple. You know, we love Nathan jr. Um, and so they both I had them attend the same school I worked in and I worked in a school that I in a neighborhood where I grew up and it was in a predominantly black. I'm talking about 90 percent black students. Um, The school that she started in, she started in the school and, um, the teachers were like black and Latino and, and during that time when I was a special ed teacher, you know, I really had this like big idea of a, if I work at a school, if I'm a public school teacher, I want to be able to make sure that my kids attend the same type of school that I teach in. And we used to have a lot of after school meetings with families and, and so from the time I was very little, but she's always been part of that experience with me, like after school, you know, I work and then after school we'll have parent meetings and my kids were there, you know, and when I went to Harvard for an ed policy degree, watching me, You know, pontificate about ed policy and inequities. And she was always there. Like I always bring along my kids when I went to Washington, DC to do an internship. I did an internship in the Department of Education. They knew that that's what they were there for. They came with me. You know, my mom came too. And I'm really close to my mom. I love Leah and I love my mom. That's my relationship with Leah. It's like, it's very much connected and rooted with my, my relationship with my mom. And also she's always witnessed my cavorting around. Educational justice related things.

Allison: 12:00

That's such a great, that's such a great story and a great weaving together of what you do professionally, what you do in the community, and also how that meshes with family and how they're, they're coinciding, you know, and, and who you are, uh, in those spaces. And they're all at the same time. Mildred, or if you would like to, if there's maybe a short. Summary of black feminism, maybe a short summary of critical race theory, just making sure that for our listeners that we describe or define what it is a

Mildred: 12:36

critical race theory. I actually have a blog that's open, but basically critical race theory is coming from the U. S. And it's coming from legal legal scholars like Kimberly Crenshaw was one of the people who was, you know, who helped The early conceptualization of critical race theories. It was, it was a lot of black, um, lawyers who had been involved in studying The civil rights cases, and they notice, Oh, my goodness, you know, here we are fighting all of these good civil rights cases and winning like brown versus born and we're winning and yet racism still persists, like changing the law by itself is not necessarily erasing, um, racism. So critical race theory is a lens. by which, and there's several tenets to it, and intersectionality is one of them, by which people make sense of why and how racism continues to persist, even if there's laws and, and, and things in place that says otherwise, right? So that's my quick summary of critical race theory. And, You know, counter narratives like some of the counter narratives that we've shared. That's one of the tenets, um, of, of, of critical race theory. Like there's, there's like the formal story, but then there's also these like unheard stories that we really need to listen to. And, um, So that's like a quick summary. Black feminism, and my friend Venus and not just her, a lot of people, they use the phrase Black feminisms because there's a lot of entry points to what Black feminism is, um, both within the United States and around the world. But it's recognizing that you cannot be a feminist and be a racist. Or be any other kind of bigot, be a classist, or be, you know, um, I don't know, ableist, right? In my case, as a special educator, being a black feminist, you know, sees the intersections. That's why we say intersectionality of multiple oppressions. And we, black feminism understands that there's no such thing as a single issue. Like that's what Audre Lorde, oh, it's not like a single issue is going to, or a single identity. It's going to tell you everything about a person's experiences. Black feminism complicates how we talk about racism, right? In terms of all the genders and all the gendered ways racism happens. And also how we talk about, um, feminism, you know, and how If you are a feminist, a supposed feminist, who's exploiting working class women, right, in order to be, you know, a famous whatever person, or a top celebrity, Top person in your field, a black feminist will come in and question that for you. And it is about coalition building, or at least, like I said, the strand of black feminism that I've, I, I, um, have always, you know, been attracted to and adhere to is, is wanting to get rid of oppression for everyone across differences. So I don't know if that was a short, a short, uh, description, but I tried.

Allison: 15:49

You did the best you could at explaining something that could be an entire degree. So we can get an entire degree in that and you did it in, in a minute or two. So you did a great job. And, and obviously for some of our listeners, this is going to be their very first entry point into these concepts. And so just want to make sure that we get some, um, definitions. Um, and so I want to shift gears and talk about this. Article, um, and so the two of you recently wrote an article together. The article is entitled centering youth of color activism and knowledge in the critical race theory debates. So, um, uh, Mildred, can you tell us maybe a little bit about how this project came about? How did this come to be an academic publication?

Mildred: 16:40

Here's where her father, my husband, Nathan gets credit. He was the one who was taking her back and forth. And so he was taking her back and forth and, you know, like, I just thought that Leah was being a star and doing all the nice things. I liked her friends that she was making. I loved that it was black girls that she was making friends with because Arizona didn't have a critical mass of black people. And I saw her. Building such healthy relationships with black girls, which was something very critical for me growing up and still is so I was like, it was like, Oh, it was a relief. So there's an article where he has a New York Times, um, interview or like, it was like a feature on youth activists. And I'm like, my daughter's in the New York Times before me. So I, I posted that. And one of my really close girlfriends, one of my really close girlfriends, she's a black feminist like I am, her name is Venus Evans Winter, she's like my big sis in the academy, I love her very much, she noticed that my daughter was doing this work, and she also just noticed, like, I would talk about my family and she, she always wanted to connect my daughter and her daughter, and she theorizes about daughtering, we actually cite her in the article, and um, and So, so, you know, when she started telling me what she was learning from her experiences talking in the summits and this drawing from her activist experiences, I was just like, I was just sharing with everyone that I knew that was, you know, thinking about this critical race ban situation that was happening. And then I mentioned it to a friend of mine, Francesca Lopez. who I love very much. She's amazing. And if you want to know more about critical race theory and, and like the logic behind that, I strongly suggest you look up her open access articles on it. It's pretty good. But she was, I think we went to, I think Leah and I, and we all went to have tacos and Leah was talking about her, like I was picking on Leah because Leah was not having the best freshman year. I was teasing her. And, you know, and then Leah was just talking about her experiences and Francesca said, you know what, why doesn't she include an article about her experiences in this special issue? It was a great opportunity for us to kind of process what Leah was going through in Arizona in her, in her activist work.

Allison: 19:16

Also want to talk about a concept that you mentioned. You've mentioned it here today, but you talk about it in the article, which is the framing of daughtering and. This is, uh, one of the reasons I reached out to you and I think it's something it's new to me and perhaps for our audience, because in season one of this podcast, we've talked about daughtering in a slightly different way based on my research and the way that I have, uh, discussed daughtering. So what's wonderful. Uh, fascinating is enlarging our vocabulary, enlarging our mindset to, to think about things in new and different ways. And so we want to hear about Dr. Evans Winters, um, uh, analytical framing of daughtering and how you used it in this

Mildred: 20:07

article. What's really interesting about Venus Evans Winters work is that in black feminist theory, there's a lot of emphasis on mothering, huge emphasis on mothering. Other mothering, you know, and and by the way, Venus Evans in winters is not the only black feminist that talks about daughtering, but she was my entry point in education. So that's why I'm stressing and she's a methodologist. And she said there's a method. There's a way of of learning and making sense of the world when you are in a mothering and or in a daughtering role. And it could be biological daughtering, right? But it could be daughtering in the sense of You know, me citing the works of senior scholars who, who, who taught me certain things. And it's a method of looking at the world of, okay, maybe my mom didn't have the opportunities that I did, but as her daughter, I should honor her and uplift her so that other people can know what she helped me understand and what I helped her understand. And so that's, that's. I think what Venus brings to the conversation with daughtering, that there's something, there's a contribution, there's a way of thinking, there's understandings that you can gain. in this role of being someone's daughter, like uplifting them, giving them feedback. Um, and that's what I think Leah has done for me. And she definitely did it for me with this critical race theory thing. She put me on, like out, she explained to me things that I understood from an academic level, but she was explaining it to me as somebody who was in K 12 schools and as a student. And that, that refined me as a, as a scholar. So, that's. That's how You know, doddering came into the methods that we use in this, in this academic paper.

Allison: 22:05

Yeah. So this is, this is a great, this is a, this is a question point that I had because, uh, what I was, when I was reading the article. I was originally understanding the daughtering as being how some of the older adults had open spaces for Leah. But now I'm understanding perhaps that the daughtering was how Leah represented you in the spaces that she was in? Or which of those, am I getting it right or wrong?

Mildred: 22:37

I think how Leah, how Leah... Leah, I think if you can share, but I think there was several examples where she was pushing the adults in her life to understand things that they were taken for granted in a gentle and respectful way. So, for example, in the article, there was times where adults were claiming to love youth. That's the way I saw it. And then Leah was like, well, actually, you're not letting me talk, right? And so, like, you know, it's like, for example, now, right? Like. You, I love the fact that you started the podcast with Leah. I love the fact that Leah is the first author and it's her voice that's dominating the voice, uh, the, the paper, because it could be a collaboration. But so there is a, a space making part to it, right? Like mothers making space or nurturers, right? Those of us who nurture the next generation making space, but also what the younger people do for us to make us understand things. As their nurturers to make us understand and expand. And also, yes, like you said, part of that is also to uplift. But all the women that like we're making space for Leah, right? And she was daughtering to them too. She's daughtering them in that she's talking about them in this article. She's uplifting how they advocated for her. That's, so there is the, the making space and honoring our mothers. But there's also the pushing for us to do better.

Allison: 24:12

Yeah. Maybe Leah, you could share a little bit more. What is your experience of daughtering either through this article or, um, any other ways that you would want to describe daughtering? Yeah.

Leah: 24:24

Um, I feel like, okay. I feel like a lot of the times when we talk about activism

Mildred: 24:31

or we talk about, uh,

Leah: 24:33

any type of justice, right. Uh, you're, you're kind of go to is to have these like places, right. Where there's the top and there's. the bottom, right? And or there's this and there's that, right? And when you're in these spaces, right, these youth activist spaces especially, where you have adults trying to mediate between youth and adults. Shout out to Shelly Jackson. Um, she's the super, I'm pretty sure she's the superintendent in Arizona right now. But she was like, at the time she was, uh, young, like 24, which compared to like, uh, the people who were in charge of the organization I was first into, big age gap, right? So she was mediating in between, like, youth, and like, older established politicians like, uh, Reginald Bolden.

Mildred: 25:16

Shout out to him. Cute.

Leah: 25:18

He, he was like a huge figure in like my teens, right? And so Shelly and other figures like her were very clear in the fact that, um, and like my mom too, but like that for communication in these activist spaces or any type of space, right? Effective communication when you're trying to have a united

Mildred: 25:39

goal, uh,

Leah: 25:41

you emphasize less the top and the bottom, right? Mothering and daughtering. are two sides of the same coin. Like it is not, I'm not dismissed in this daughtering role.

Mildred: 25:54

And

Leah: 25:55

my mom or like other, like senior, like motherly figures are not necessarily the end all be all, right?

Mildred: 26:03

There's communication,

Leah: 26:05

there's love and there's respect and how that works and how that looks like. Uh, can change, but is ultimately consistent in its goal, right, to communicate and to create community. So that was like a huge thing for me, in which I just, I never felt dismissed. I never felt dismissed, at least not, especially like, um, when, when I was mentored by Dr. Venus Winters. I cannot speak. I am so sorry. But when I was mentored by her directly, uh, It was, it was that too. Like I always knew that at the very least I would be listened to that what I said was valued. And that I would not be dismissed.

Allison: 26:48

Wow. You both just kind of blew my mind. And I think when I was reading the article, and I was reading the work, I definitely did not quite get it. And then today's interview really has helped me get it. And I think this. This idea of this, um, this act, not as just this active participation, but also gentle resistance, this effective communication. There's no top, there's no bottom. It's just coming together. It's about, um, both parties trying to say something and both parties are necessary for, for there to be meaning making happening. And, um, a lot of the work that I have done. Is related to family related mothering and daughtering, and this type of daughtering is not not necessarily family related. Right? It's it sounds like Leah. You're telling us that daughtering can be in a, in, in lots of spaces in community spaces in, um. I don't know if I'm saying that right. It doesn't daughtering doesn't have to take place within family. So maybe say more about that. Where, where can daughtering take place and with whom can daughtering take place?

Leah: 28:14

All right. Mommy, do you want me to take

Mildred: 28:15

the lead on this one? Yeah, please daughter away right now. I have my two cents because I'm an academic and I don't show up. But yes, daughter, daughter.

Leah: 28:28

Um, let's say daughtering and mothering, right? It can happen anywhere. It can happen.

Mildred: 28:35

Basically, feasibly

Leah: 28:36

anywhere. It's not about really like where you are. It's more about like who and what you're doing, right? Like, who are you to this person, right? Um, I feel like, first of all, what is family, right? Like, that's a whole different conversation. And so family can be made in so many different places. And when I was entering these activist spaces, I, I entered activist spaces at the local grassroots level, right? And I went all the way to the national, national level, which I did not expect. And it was very different experiences along the way. Uh, but what remained consistent, right? Whether I was online. Right, um, whether I was talking to someone who was like seven years my elder in the case of Shelly Jackson Like about around 20 years my elder in the case of Dr. Venus Evans Winter or even like I have like a friend who I'm so very close to to this day Trinity, Trinity Miracle really fun name actually her name But uh, she's only like two years older than me means the world to me. Taught me so much, right? And so like, in that case, right, we kind of switch on who's mother, who's daughter, um, in terms of what that looks like, right? It's not a static thing. It's not necessary. It doesn't even have to be reflective and traditional understandings of who is senior and who is junior.

Mildred: 30:03

It's just about

Leah: 30:04

its mindset. It's who's, it's like, uh, am I creating space? Am I listening? Yeah. Am I being listened to? Am I guiding? Am I being guided? And that is so not static. And it's, it's, I don't know, I think it's something really beautiful.

Mildred: 30:21

Well, that was cool, Leah, and I respect, and I, yes, yes, to everything you just said. I just want to stress the Black feminist aspect of this, and it's, again, I love Black feminism because it's always been, or at least the people who I, um, I, uh, See, as my mother's in black feminism, even though they don't know me, but they mothered me, um, through their words and through their, their, their writings and through their poetry is that it's all about coalition building even across difference, right? So, but the reason why for me, our African heritage, the fact that we're black, we're, we're, we're, we come from, um, you know, a country that is. It's often misrepresented, misunderstood, um, you know, and it's not an imperial power. It's a, it's a, it's a small country on half an island. This is Dominican Republic. It's that because of the violence of slavery, because families were ripped apart, uh, women were seen as producing property instead of children, children and adults were separated. And even to this day, we're not enslaved, but many black women because of. social issues because of the criminal justice systems because of even child welfare services and just a lot of things. There's this separation that sometimes happens within biological black families. Due to, you know, oppressive factors, right? That mothering and kin, kin like relationships had to be forged in non biological situations, right? Um, it had to be formed, you know, Um, the need to have somebody care for you in that kind of way and, and, and to care for others in that kind of way and to have that kind of relationship existed even when biological families were ripped apart. And so, you know, mothering and daughtering and, you know, like sisters and fictive, there's this notion of fictive kin. What Leah was saying, like family is. is relative, right? But understanding how it's rooted in the need to still have your humanity, the need to have connections with others, that can also be helpful in understanding, well, what, what's the daughter in situation? You know, if you are a woman, Who is new to a company and, and, um, and an older woman who has been there for a long time, you know, takes you under her wing. There's a mother daughter dynamic that might happen there. Maybe there's some things that that older woman in that corporation. Is used to and accustomed to because she was the only one right that in a daughter role You can help her see maybe there's other ways of being or be a support to her in a daughter role So that she doesn't feel like she has to be, you know, just sucking up, you know disrespect as the only woman And simultaneously, clearly, as a new woman in a healthy kind of mother and daughter and dynamic, she's gonna learn for someone who's been around in the organization. So I just made up like a hypothetical situation of like, Hey, you know, there's only so many women out here who has more experience. But dottering, dottering Um, make space for it to not just be one directional, someone who's more powerful, more senior telling, you know, the less powerful, less senior person what to do. But, uh, but like Alina said so eloquently, um, a loving sense making dynamic. Um, and there's a lot of situations where that kind of relationship between, you know, women, um, can happen, women, girls, and so on. So I hope that that's helpful, but that's the way I understood it. And, you know, I'm, I'm open to other ideas, but for me, understanding the root of the separations and a lot of black families helps to understand why these kinds of, of non biological relationships. Really, really matter.

Allison: 34:49

That is very important. Thank you for grounding the, the work, especially of today's topic and where we're coming from today. We're talking about the, the work of black feminism and we're talking about your article that, um, context matters. And that, uh, different words and ideas and definitions and, um, perspectives can be held differently across communities, uh, across the world. And, um, that we want to honor different, uh, traditions and different cultures and also not expect that those would apply, uh, across. Everyone or across cultures, they might, but we don't know for sure. Right? So, so we want to honor that today we're talking about this in a, in a particular context. So I'm so grateful for the time that we've spent together today and learned a lot from you ladies. One of the most exciting things for me was the discussion about non familial daughtering or this idea that women can daughter. Others around them as a form of relationality, mutuality, respect, and influence. It's, it's one of my most favorite new ideas that, to be honest, I just cannot stop thinking about and now I'm thinking about it all the time. And that takes us to today's practical portion of the

Michelle: 36:21

podcast. Oh wow, say that three times fast.

Allison: 36:25

Hello mothers! Hello, daughters.

Michelle: 36:28

We actually have a question for our listeners today.

Allison: 36:32

Who

Michelle: 36:33

are you daughtering? Do you have a neighbor, a co worker, a friend of your family, or parent of your kids, friends who um, interact with you in a daughtering way? I

Allison: 36:46

mean, how do you know that

Michelle: 36:51

that feels like daughtering? What separates that from what? Plain old friendship? Or some other form of relational connection? We leave you with those thoughts to ponder and consider. Do you think that that person recognizes you as providing daughtering to them? Whatever that might mean to them? Daughtering?

Allison: 37:12

Maybe you should have a conversation about it with them. Hmm. I love that. It's always good to recommend a conversation. Well, that wraps up today's amazing episode, but I must add that Dr. Boveda also gave these recommendations for key authors for those interested in learning more about CRT. She said, I encourage your audience to learn more about the works of black legal scholars, such as Derrick Bell, Kimberly Crenshaw, Cheryl Harris, and Patricia J. Williams. Now, I, Allison, am so grateful for Leah and Mildred generously giving their time to have this discussion, especially, I didn't mention this, but Mildred was, Mildred was taking care of her mom and dad in the Dominican Republic. So I was so grateful that she gave her time. And I'm really appreciative of these women, the women whose ideas came before theirs, which we're all sharing and expanding upon. And after all, we're all connected, aren't we? So thanks for listening. This has been the final episode of season two. And, in fact, it's the final season of Hello Mother, Hello Daughter. Boo! Woo!

Mildred: 38:28

It's been fun, it really has.

Michelle: 38:30

Our goal was to share research on the adult mother daughter relationship in an accessible way,

Allison: 38:36

and I hope that we achieved that goal. I believe we have, we wanted to thank you listeners for your support, for listening, for sharing, commenting, replying your, your messages and your goodwill have meant so much to us.

Michelle: 38:54

Stay tuned for our next big adventure, which we're calling the 100

Allison: 39:01

daughters project. That's right. Don't think you're getting rid of us. We're just going to be changing the pace a little bit and trying something new. Ladies, we want to hear from you. We want to hear from 100 women around the world of every unique circumstance. And if you are willing to share your daughtering story with the world, contact us at 100daughtersprojectatgmail. com. That is 100, the number 1 0 0 daughters project at gmail. com. And we'll have that linked in the show notes. It's been great. It's

Michelle: 39:40

been fun. We bid you adieu

Allison: 39:43

until next time. Goodbye. Mothers, goodbye.