This week’s episode features a discussion on narcissistic mothers with Dr. Karyl McBride, a licensed marriage and family therapist, consultant, expert witness, and author. Note for listeners: this episode is not a substitute for professional treatment, but rather an open and knowledge-based conversation.
When describing adult mother-daughter relationships, Michelle explains that daughters who lack mothering often grieve an idealistic form of their relationship. This can especially be true for daughters with narcissistic mothers. These mothers' lack of empathy can be seen through entitlement, exploitation, and constant disapproval.
Dr. McBride notes the term narcissism is used loosely in society, when in reality narcissism disorder is far more serious. Sharing personal experiences from their own lives, Michelle and Karyl reference the all too familiar “family rule” of maintaining a perfect image, despite the dysfunctional dynamics that persist behind the scenes. Dr. McBride compares the narcissistic family system to that of the alcoholic, identifying key familial roles including the narcissist, the enabler, the scapegoat, the golden child, and the lost child. Although there is no such thing as a perfect family, Dr. McBride emphasizes the importance of having someone to lean on throughout one’s child development.
“A lot of people are told the past is the past, get over it. That's not true. If we don’t embrace the trauma and do recovery, we won’t get better - it’s an inside job” -K.M.
“There is a lot to think about for daughters of narcissistic mothers. Be safe. Be healthy. Be Loved.” -M.M.D.
This week’s episode features a discussion on narcissistic mothers with Dr. Karyl McBride, a licensed marriage and family therapist, consultant, expert witness, and author. Note for listeners: this episode is not a substitute for professional treatment, but rather an open and knowledge-based conversation.
When describing adult mother-daughter relationships, Michelle explains that daughters who lack mothering often grieve an idealistic form of their relationship. This can especially be true for daughters with narcissistic mothers. These mothers' lack of empathy can be seen through entitlement, exploitation, and constant disapproval.
Dr. McBride notes the term narcissism is used loosely in society, when in reality narcissism disorder is far more serious. Sharing personal experiences from their own lives, Michelle and Karyl reference the all too familiar “family rule” of maintaining a perfect image, despite the dysfunctional dynamics that persist behind the scenes. Dr. McBride compares the narcissistic family system to that of the alcoholic, identifying key familial roles including the narcissist, the enabler, the scapegoat, the golden child, and the lost child. Although there is no such thing as a perfect family, Dr. McBride emphasizes the importance of having someone to lean on throughout one’s child development.
“A lot of people are told the past is the past, get over it. That's not true. If we don’t embrace the trauma and do recovery, we won’t get better - it’s an inside job” -K.M.
“There is a lot to think about for daughters of narcissistic mothers. Be safe. Be healthy. Be Loved.” -M.M.D.
Hello, mother. Hello, daughter. Just like any relationship, the adult mother daughter relationship takes work. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Miller Day. And I'm your host,
DR. ALFORD:
Dr. Allison Alford.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
In this podcast, we'll discuss the experience of mothering and daughtering in adulthood. We'll explore the topics that matter most to women using both a scientific perspective and an everyday relational lens. Be
DR. ALFORD:
sure to listen till the end of the podcast to hear our pro tips for both mothers and daughters. Our goal for this podcast is to help women have better relationships and better lives.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
And of course, don't forget to like and follow us on social media. Hey, everyone. We are back again. This week talking about narcissistic mothers and the adult mother daughter relationship. What is a narcissistic parent? And
DR. ALFORD:
adult children would probably. Describe their narcissistic parent as self centered, manipulative, and demanding. Um, wow, that's quite a lot to deal with. And if you are an adult child, that means you've been dealing with it. A long time, uh, Michelle, this is an area where you've done a lot of
DR. MILLER-DAY:
research. Yes, I have. So yeah,
DR. ALFORD:
you, you've been thinking about narcissistic parents long before it was, uh, as popular a topic it is now. And so has our guest today. So you interviewed somebody special and her name is Dr. Carol McBride. She's a bestselling author of three books on narcissism. Especially related to adults with narcissistic parents. And Carol draws from her career as a licensed marriage and family therapist, where she has seen a lot of things in clinical practice. One of her most recent books is titled, Will the Drama Ever End? Untangling and Healing from the Harmful Effects of Parental Narcissism. Yes, we
DR. MILLER-DAY:
will list in the show notes where you can find her books. But before we get to the interview, I want to note that this podcast is not a stand in for seeking help with a licensed professional. If any of the information that we're sharing today triggers you in any way, And to be honest with you, if you are a daughter of a narcissistic mother, it might very well do so. We want you to be sure to contact a licensed professional to work out some of these issues. Without further ado, and with that in mind, let's jump on in. And here. What Dr. Carole McBride has to say. Hello there. Today we have an amazing guest. I'm really excited about this guest today. Dr. Carole McBride, who is a therapist and author of three books. A consultant and a, of course, a daughter. I got really interested in Dr. McBride's books when I read one of her books. It's called, Will I Ever Be Good Enough? Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. So talking about narcissistic mothers and mother daughter relationships here today. Welcome. Thank you for joining us today.
DR. MCBRIDE:
Thank you, Michelle. Thanks for having me.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
You know, on this particular podcast, we've talked a lot about mother work and daughtering and mothering. And oftentimes we have talked about daughters who just basically feel like they have been not mothered enough or, or not mothered in the way that they want and grieve this idealistic idea of what a mother daughter relationship should be. How did you get interested in working? With daughters of narcissistic mothers or families with narcissists.
DR. MCBRIDE:
Yeah, I've been in the mental health field for, um, over 40 years now and probably halfway through I, I was working my own recovery, realizing that I always knew I'd grown up in an alcoholic family, but I didn't understand the narcissism piece, and when I was going out, you know, looking for resources, I realized there, there wasn't anything there. There was very little even on narcissism at the time, and not for the lay public, you know, to understand. There was the Freudian stuff, which nobody even reads anymore, you know, but So I started researching, and I, I really, it was such a big topic. I, I started with the mother daughter relationship, and did, you know, research for actually several years before I decided that this needs to get out there, you know. This needs to be talked about, and it's such a taboo topic, of course. Good girls don't talk about their mothers, you know, and, or talk bad about them, that is, but yeah, so that's sort of where I started, and then it really touched a nerve. I was actually quite surprised. That it touched the nerve and just kind of went all over the world. Um,
DR. MILLER-DAY:
so I agree with you. You know, the, the word narcissism for me early on in my research, hearken back again to the more psychoanalytical and, you know, a narcissist is somebody who just looks in the mirror all the time and who admires themselves. And I didn't, it didn't resonate with me until I did more work into it about, oh, okay, this really is what narcissism is. So tell us what is that? You know, what is narcissism? And, um, what is a narcissistic mother? Are there particular signs that perhaps you have a narcissistic
DR. MCBRIDE:
mother? Yeah. Uh, and I think you, um, hit it on the nail there. Um, because I do think narcissism is. Thrown around still very loosely the term, you know, people kind of think it just means it's people who are all about themselves or boastful, bragging, look at me, look at me, you know, but the disorder of narcissism is far more serious than that. In other words, who really cares? I don't care if someone's arrogant or boastful. They're not hurting anybody. I mean, they're annoying. You can stay away from them, but they're not hurting anyone. The real disorder is about lack of empathy and the inability to tune in to the emotional world of others. And they use other people to meet their own needs. In other words, they're exploitative. Um, and they have this profound sense of entitlement, like, I am important and I'm more important than you, so jump when I speak. Um, and I always like to start interviews with explaining that narcissism is a spectrum disorder. So we have to think of it as a continuum, you know, where over here on the far end is the full blown narcissistic personality disorder. And over here on the other far end are normal narcissistic traits that we probably all have. But then the further you go along this continuum with narcissistic traits, the more likely you are to create damage and have problems. In your intimate relationships and the signs, you know, again, the, the narcissist gives the message that it's all about what you do and how you look. Not who you really are as a person, you know, and
DR. MILLER-DAY:
And your reflection
DR. MCBRIDE:
on them. And also like how you can help them, right? It's like you're there for them. They're not there for you. Right. When we're talking about parenting, of course, that's messed up. You know, that's not the way it's supposed to be.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
Right. Your mother is there to support you. You know, that's that, that ideal, right? That's out there. The selfless mom who is always there for you and to support you. And the reality is to do that a hundred percent is. You know, not really attainable, but also on the other end of things, some support is, is necessary and, and warranted. And when you don't have that, there's this, you know, chasm that is felt, you know, that I don't. And I never had that. Right. Yeah.
DR. MCBRIDE:
And there, of course, there are no perfect parents, there are no perfect mothers, there are no perfect families, I mean, you know, that's just reality. But the, having, having someone to lean on as a child and to tune into you and to really see you and hear you and understand you is, is just crucial to a child's development. Absolutely. Absolutely,
DR. MILLER-DAY:
and I think for daughters. Development, the mother daughter relationship is so profound, you know, in forming a woman's identity as a person, let alone as a daughter and as eventually as a mother, perhaps. Right. Yes. I'm a communication professor. And so I'm really interested in the verbal and nonverbal cues that are specific to this kind of relationship.
DR. MCBRIDE:
Yes. The narcissist is constantly disapproving, whether it's verbal or nonverbal. They're judging. They're critical. They're not accountable for their own behavior. So they're projecting their feelings onto others because they don't embrace their own emotions. If confronted, they use things like gaslighting to kind of, you know, say, well, you heard that wrong, or that's not true, or you're the crazy one, you know, that didn't happen. They give a verbal and a nonverbal message to their children that they're not good enough. No matter what they do, they're not good enough. In fact, I don't know if you remember in the first book, I had a very poignant story about that, where the woman that I was talking to told me, When I die, I want you to put on my gravestone I tried, I tried, I tried, and then I died. That's a second go, oh my gosh. In a nutshell, right? In a nutshell. And then, narcissists don't use real direct communication. They like to triangulate through others to get their messages across. So there's a to talk to you now about what's going on. And basically, as we touched on earlier, the narcissistic parent's mantra is the parental needs take precedence over the child's needs. So you're really there to take care of them, not the other way around. So that leaves a child pretty confused, you know, particularly when they're younger, um, how can I make them happy? And the reality is... You know, we can't. Narcissists aren't happy people. They're usually self loathing, even though they present with charm and grandiosity. So it's extremely confusing to their children. And then other communication characteristics, Michelle, they, they don't... There's a real strong message, whether they say it or just act it out, don't be real, don't be you, don't show your true feelings. There's a family rule that we have to keep up the image now of the perfect family, right? Yes. And so, you know, that just sort of squishes the child's development.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
Right. Last season, we had an episode where I actually brought my sister on. The, uh, the podcast and she talked a little bit about how, and this was, you know, back when this is 1972, I think, you know, the era was a little bit different in terms of teenage pregnancies, but she came in and talked a little bit about her teenage pregnancy and how the, the family, that whole image thing, you know, how the family looks and that social presentation versus, versus what. What happens in the household,
DR. MCBRIDE:
so. And how, you know, how sad. Because at that time, the person being pregnant, of course, what other time do you most need the support of your family, you know, and your mother?
DR. MILLER-DAY:
100%. But what is the role of the dad? That begs a question, right? Are these matriarchal families typically, would that have the narcissistic moms? Or, what is the role of dad typically in these families? Well,
DR. MCBRIDE:
sometimes we do see a narcissist marrying another narcissist, but it, when that happens, they're usually, you know, when I talk about that continuum, they're usually on a different point on the continuum. So there's still a power imbalance. But more typically, we find that the narcissist finds a partner who will buy their charm and their grandiosity and their control. Um, then the partner's role is to support the narcissist and revolve around them. Always make them look good. So a codependent person, which of course is unhealthy, is a great match for a narcissist, because codependents basically give up their needs to take care of someone else's needs. And a lot of them believe... falsely, that they can somehow just love more, do more, fix the problem, teach the narcissist to love, teach the narcissist to have empathy, but it's all basically, they find out to no avail, it doesn't work. Um, so then what happens is You have the narcissist here in the middle, you have the enabling person, uh, revolving around them, and then if there are children, the children are kind of way down in the corner, like who's attending to them? Their emotional and psychological needs don't get met. And that
DR. MILLER-DAY:
makes sense to me, you know, that whole thing about everything revolving around the narcissist, and enabling that kind of behavior. With the children kind of off, off to the side for all intents and purposes. Yeah, so, so I said my sister, right? So we grew up in a family with my mom, I believe, who was a narcissist. She's passed now, but we had different actually childhood experiences. There were eight years between us where I think she felt very keenly. I will never be good enough and always trying to prove that. Whereas I am the youngest in the family. I tended to be kind of an overachiever at times, you know, and, and. I, I have been accused of being my mother's pet, you know, in terms of that. And so I had a little more positive relationship with my mom than, say, my siblings did. That's pretty common from what I understand from your books, that what paths we take, we may take, it may manifest in different ways for different people. You know, trying to always be better or to be good enough. Can you talk a little bit about that, what those kind of different manifestations are?
DR. MCBRIDE:
Yeah, it's interesting, um, because the dynamics are real similar to the alcoholic family system. So we, we see the narcissist, we see either another narcissistic parent or the enabler as we just discussed. And then we see roles that are assigned in the family, like oftentimes there's a scapegoat, that child gets picked on the most and all the problems are blamed on them. Then, uh, we often see a golden child, and the golden child is sort of the one more favored. And less picked on, and then we see the lost child who's just kind of ignored, and this can happen, and these roles weirdly can change depending on what the narcissist needs at the time, so that even makes it more confusing. Or let's say the older sibling moves out and then another kid becomes the scapegoat or the lost child. So that can, that can change around, but it's, uh, none of those roles, of course, are fun to have. You know? Yeah. And different from the alcoholic family system, they talk about the mascot, you know, the child that is the jokester and the clown, and I haven't seen that. In the narcissistic family system, and the only thing I can think of is, I think it would just be too threatening to the narcissist. Mmm. The clown gets, you know, attention for being cute and funny and making everybody laugh and, you know, that's... The control of the narcissist and needing the attention on them would cut that off. So that's just my take on that, but.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
No, that resonates with me as well. That resonates with me as well. And that makes sense. Absolutely. So is there a recovery model? Is there a recovery model for adult daughters who want to psychologically separate themselves from narcissistic
DR. MCBRIDE:
mothers? Yes, and as I mentioned earlier, I started working on what I call the five, my five step recovery program when I was writing the first book and then enhanced it in the second book and now have greatly enhanced it in the third book, Will the Drama Ever End? And it basically has, there's five steps to the recovery that I found for my own recovery and the hundreds of people I've worked with now who come from these families. If they're worked in sequence, they, that's what makes them successful. Separation individuation is actually step two. Um, so, we can't really separate and do individuation until we do step one, which is A, accepting that there is a problem. I'm getting out of the denial that's rampant in the narcissistic family and accepting that, you know, there's a problem here. This parent has a disorder. And then working on the trauma that goes with that, the trauma of not feeling loved and appreciated and seen and heard and being valued for who you are, and that trauma work takes some time, and there are several steps to that. And then step two is the, the separation. We call it separation individuation, and that, that is like, you know, separating yourself from this sticky web of dysfunction over here in the family. And there are several steps to that, and it really, in a nutshell, is about looking at who you are separate from them. Um, because when you grow up, it's kind of hard to tell where your arm ends and their arm begins. You know? Um, and then it moves on to step three, which is becoming the person you really are. So then you work on developing that sense of self that got squashed in childhood. And then step four is now how do I deal with these people? You know, in recovery, I'm, am I going to be dealing differently with them? Not just with the narcissist, but with the enabler, with the other siblings. I mean, there's all these complicated family issues, of course.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
We know that about the family system. You know, and I'm just talking about other episodes here and how you can heal outside of that. But once you get back, you're always in a system here. And we were back to how we're used to behaving and feeling and doing, you know, until some external force helps you kind of change that flow. Yeah. So.
DR. MCBRIDE:
If you've done the other steps and worked through the trauma and accepted and worked on separation and really worked on your core authentic self, then it's much easier to do step four, you know, when you're dealing with the rest of the nest and the narcissist. And also, in that step, you're learning how to set boundaries. Right. Because that's extremely important. And then the last step is, now, how do I, how do I take this recovery and move it into my own life now? Like, how is it impacting my love relationships, my friendships, my own parenting of my children? And also my own, you know, maybe I've learned some narcissistic traits I need to unlearn quickly.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
Well, you mentioned boundaries, and that's so, so very important. How do I maintain myself in relationship with this person, but that requires boundaries? Are there suggestions for how boundaries can be established?
DR. MCBRIDE:
Yeah, I think, I think first it's really important to know that setting boundaries with a narcissist is hard. So when people start doing it, you know, I always warn them it's not going to be easy at first because narcissists don't have boundaries, or they don't have good boundaries. And they certainly, because of their control issues, don't like people to set boundaries on them. So what they do at first is they up the ante. They become more, you know, engulfing or more aggressive or if they're the ignoring types, they just shut you out. You're done, you know. But I think the most important, there's a couple important things about boundaries. One is to make a boundary work, you have to make it and then you have to stick to it. Because if you don't stick to it, then they can use their manipulation and charm and whatever to work around it. And they will. And then I think another really important piece of boundaries that people, uh, I'm reminding people all the time of is when you set a boundary to use I statements rather than you statements. So we're not really telling them what to do. People don't like to be told what to do. We're telling them what I'm comfortable with, so if you use an I statement, I am not comfortable with this. I'm going to stop this conversation. I can't do this right now, maybe I can do it later. Or if comments are made about, as often are, about weight. Uh, your house, your children, whatever they're criticizing, this is my body. I will control that. Um, this is my house. These are my children. You know, referring back to you rather than saying, you know, knock that off, you can't say that to me anymore. Right,
DR. MILLER-DAY:
right. And I feel, I believe, I whatever, this behavior and how it affects me and what are the consequences if this continues, right? So, so absolutely, so, uh, you know, owning that and being able to, and that's hard for I think the child of a narcissistic mother because it's very often within the context of you and how it makes you feel seems kind of selfish. You know, and getting past that, that sense of it being selfish to actually have your own needs.
DR. MCBRIDE:
It's important for people to understand that if we grew up with a narcissistic parent, we're gonna grow up with some pretty strong codependency because we had the best training camp for, of anybody. So it's hard to change that, you know, it's hard to say, well, wait a minute. I'm important here
DR. MILLER-DAY:
too. And it's being selfless, I think is cultivated.
DR. MCBRIDE:
Well, and I think, I think just understanding that it, it's not selfish, it's healthy.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
It's healthy. Exactly.
DR. MCBRIDE:
If you want me to go to a movie tonight at nine o'clock with you and I have to work tomorrow and I'm codependent and I don't want to hurt your feelings and I do it anyway and then I can't work tomorrow because I'm too tired, that's not taking care of me and it's not really honest with you. It's better to have the boundary of, I'd love to, I just can't do it tonight because I have to work tomorrow. But I'd love to do it another
DR. MILLER-DAY:
time. And I can right now hear some of our listeners like, but I would go, I would do it. So absolutely, no, absolutely. In
DR. ALFORD:
what ways
DR. MILLER-DAY:
can your books about daughters trying to navigate their challenging relationship, how, how can these books help us? Tell us a little bit more about your books.
DR. MCBRIDE:
Well, I've kind of laid out all three books sort of the same way that I do therapy. Part one's explain the problem, part two talks about the effects on you, what symptoms, what's going on for you, and then the third part of the books are about the recovery and you know, how to do that. Now as I said earlier in my third book, Will the Drama Ever End? Untangling and Healing from the Effects of Parental Narcissism, the Harmful Effects. I've enhanced the recovery model the most in the third book, so there's lots of journaling exercises, lots of questions, you know, lots of things that you can do at home and with your therapist, uh, if you have one, to, to learn how do I untangle from this, you know, how do I heal from this dysfunction. But that, that third part, and there's a little bit of that in all my books, but the third one focuses more on walking you step by step through the five step recovery model.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
That's great. I mean, for anybody who wants to go there, willieverbegoodenough. com, um, features all of her books and... Again, the first one, will I ever be good enough, healing the daughters of narcissistic mothers. The second one, will I ever be free of you, how to navigate a high conflict divorce from a narcissist. And heal your family and the third, you just told that title, but I'll give the short version is will the drama ever end, which I love that title, by the way, um, something else that I want to point out is that Dr. McBride has articulated several times in the last few minutes, which is the importance of getting a therapist, getting somebody who's external to the family system to help you navigate this process of disentangling you and setting your own boundaries and creating your own identity. I know Dr. McBride has several resources on your website. You have workshops you can purchase and download, but resources to find a therapist in your area. Um, is there anything you want to add to that, Dr. McBride, or suggestions?
DR. MCBRIDE:
I would just say that a lot of people are told the past is the past, get over it already. And, um, that's not true, unfortunately. If we don't embrace the trauma and do recovery, uh, we're not going to get better. We're not going to feel better. So it's an inside job. It isn't, you know, go to your parents or your family and confront them and have a big fight with them and tell them how terrible they are. That doesn't work. And it's not effective. It, it's us embracing our own trauma. And I believe, I mean, I'm just so all about recovery. I, I just believe it's the key to adult children who are raised by narcissistic parents. It is the key to their mental and physical well being.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
I am going to ask you actually one final question here, because we always end our episodes with tips for mothers, tips for daughters. So, actually, this has been very full of tips, say, for daughters in these family systems. If I'm a narcissistic mom, though, what, and I'm listening to this, and my daughter approaches me and says, we need to work on this, and I'm being told that she perceives me as narcissistic, and she wouldn't probably say that word, but are there tips for moms who might be falling into these traps?
DR. MCBRIDE:
Again, we have to go back to that continuum, like if there's a mom that's somewhere on the continuum but not high level, they might be open to, let's talk about it, let's heal, you know, I care how you feel. The higher you go on that continuum though, the narcissistic mother is not going to be open to that. So that's, that creates a barrier to actually doing that. Now, what I would say to any parent, if your children come to you. with, Hey, there's some stuff from my childhood, you know, I'm not comfortable with, you know, my advice is open the door, uh, hear them do validation, do empathy, see them, you know, that's extremely important or they're not going to feel like you heard them.
DR. MILLER-DAY:
Right. So just, you know, that, that idea of just respecting the other individual, whether they're a child or not, you know, enough to empathize and listen and try and hear it from their point of view. Um, not arguing about that, just saying, okay, I can see how you can see it that way. And, and seeing, are there tidbits in there that, that you can identify with and that there is maybe some work that you can do to contribute to this relationship. On this podcast, I say over and over again, this is a relationship like any other. It requires work. It requires effort. It requires ongoing maintenance. Thank you so much, Dr. McBride. I'm so thrilled to have you on the show and I really, really encourage everybody to, to go to her website, check out her resources as well as the books. They're highly informative. So, thank you. Thank you very
DR. MCBRIDE:
much again. Oh, you're welcome, Michelle. I enjoyed talking to you.
DR. ALFORD:
Okay. It's time for some tips. Hello
DR. MILLER-DAY:
mothers. Hello daughters. Now,
DR. ALFORD:
my first tip is for anyone listening who just might be coming to the realization that they are in relationship with a narcissist or were raised by a narcissist. Is of course to find a trained licensed therapist to help unpack your thoughts and feelings with. My second tip is to think about contact and how much contact you want to have with a narcissistic parent and weigh your options. You have autonomy in this decision, so you should know that you have options to stay in contact with your parent or not. Option one for healthy contact is what the website bandbacktogether. com calls measured contact. This is a limited interaction with your parent with healthy boundaries. Option two, on the other hand, is estrangement, which means no contact at all. However, this can also be healthy. For, uh, an adult child with a narcissistic parent, if it, uh, helps to prevent abusive
DR. MILLER-DAY:
contact. The last tip is, of course, To follow the recovery steps outlined by Dr. McBride in her books, the first thing is to work on your trauma to heal yourself, acknowledging your trauma and healing. This has to happen before you can move on to the next steps. The second step is separation from the dysfunctional relationship. Who are you as a person separate from her? Who are you without her with you? Third. Become the person you really are. Who is that person? Fourth, deal with the family, right? How are you going to go back into this family system once you have healed and know who you are? How do you go back into this system without falling back into dysfunctional patterns? And lastly, how do you integrate this information into your new life? There is a lot to think about for you daughters of narcissistic mothers. Be safe. Be healthy. Be loved.